Welcome one and all to the 3rd Friday of National Poetry Month! I'm glad to have this opportunity to host you all and will be diving into all your tasty posts later Friday afternoon (once I return from MY tasty activity, which is bringing an intro to poetry to the 2nd grade Alpacas and Okapis at a local two-way Spanish immersion school).
The main event here today is what I hope you'll consider a special treat: a lively recorded conversation in which fellow Teaching Poets Jone and Margaret talk extensively with me about a topic dear to our hearts and yours: poetry with and for kids! We'll discuss:
1) approaches to the teaching of poetry with elementary-aged kids2) why it's important!
3) and how writing with kids inspires and sustains us, three middle-aging white ladies. 🌞
The video is edited down to about 33 minutes, which is still rawther long--so you should feel free to watch it at 1.5x speed or even 2x if you need to! We decided to take out the middle chunk where we rhapsodize over certain books and poets we turn to again and again in our work, but you can see a list of our recommended resources below, and some highlights from the transcript.
Now, dim the lights, grab bucket of popcorn as light as falling cherry blossoms, and enjoy the show!
All three of us hope that you enjoy hearing a little bit about the charmed work that we do, and that you too get inspiration and sustenance from your poetry involvements, with or without groups of children!
And now for your contributions!
Heidi:
Welcome, welcome, my friends, to this casual conversation! We teach poetry, the three of us, and I thought it would be really great to have some folks who are very specifically engaged in teaching poetry in different settings to have a little chat about how it goes for us and why we think it's important, and what we achieve and for our our students, the the kids that we work with, and for ourselves in doing the work that we do. So I'll introduce myself first. I'm Heidi Mordhorst. I was a classroom teacher in many different settings for 37 years, and then I had the great gift of an opportunity to change gears, leave full-time classroom teaching and establish WHISPERshout Writing Workshop. It's now a 501c3 with the mission of Poetry and Justice for All....and I work with kids who are generally 4 to 12, mainly 5 to 11, elementary school age. How about you, Margaret?
Margaret:
Hi, I'm Margaret Simon. And I was teaching for 38 years until I retired in May of 25 and found an opportunity that has just been a godsend through our Acadiana Center for the Arts. It's called the Teaching Artist program, and I get to go into schools and do the best part of teaching. I like to tell them, I get to come in and have fun, and I don't have to grade their papers or call their parents for any reason. So it's just a joy. I get to go into the classrooms, and, you know, get passionate about poetry and it's just a joy. I've really enjoyed this new gig of mine!
Jone:
I'm Jone Rush MacCulloch, and I retired eight years ago after 44 years, mostly in the school library, and I now am substituting, and I also love to bring in poetry and art. When I go to the classrooms, most of the teachers ask me, “Would you like me to leave you some time for poetry and art?” And I always say yes, and it's one of the best things that I get to do with my retired time.
Heidi:
Well, thank you for joining me. We're going to address a few different questions, and the first one is, What works in teaching poetry to kids? What are your favorite approaches for working with specific ages and stages of students?
I’ll toss something out:
I did not make this up–I actually heard someone* say this in a Poetry Foundation workshop that I went to in Chicago one July–and when I heard this simple sentence, I didn't really even need to hear the rest of the workshop because it made immediate sense to me…You can say to kids who, very typically, go to the art room for their art special each week, “Who likes to do art? Well, poetry is just artwork made of words.” And I was like, “THAT is genius.” And that is how I begin with the youngest students (and even with the oldest students at the right level), and I usually bring in an artwork that I've made, a collage, and we talk about how it was made, and what the tools and materials are that I use and the choices that I made as an artist to make the artwork, the visual art–-and then I show them my “real” artwork, the thing that I feel most passionate about, and they're like, “Where is it? What is it?” The little ones aren't sure, right? And the older ones know that it's made of words, but they… have never necessarily thought of a poem as an artwork. And that really changes the conversation about what we're doing in a classroom with this kind of literature that sits on the boundary between art and and literacy and creativity and self expression and breaking the rules and following the rules. So that's one of my go-to approaches, is to treat poetry writing like making an artwork of any other kind.
Heidi, I want to thank you for that, because this is a new gig for me, and… I'm always curious about, okay, how do I best approach these kids who really don't experience poetry every day, and they don't really….you know, I usually start with “What is a poem?” and try to elicit responses that way. But I love the way you do that. So I might have to change it up. I did borrow what you say to the kids about being the boss. “You are the boss of your poem.”
Heidi:
And we’re going to come back around to that, I think, when we talk about why poetry is important! How about you, Jone?
Jone:
I like to sometimes start with a poem that I really, really like. And I always feel that if I'm really enthusiastic about the poem, kids are going to be and, you know, I think over the years, they just know that when I come in, they're going to get poetry, you know, because one of the things about subbing is I might teach them in kindergarten, and I’m probably going to bring in that art piece now with kinders, but I will see them again in first grade and second grade, and we'll talk about, you know, that time that we got to do poetry, and I am pretty firm about really trying to tie in the art to the visual to go along with the poem all the time.
Margaret:
I would like to know–well, because I have pretty strong feelings about this–what makes poetry important? We seem to be rare breeds, those of us who come into the classrooms teaching poetry, and I can't help but be really disappointed when I ask the question, “What is a poem?” and really get very little in response. It hasn't been, for most of the kids I work with, it hasn't been a part of their learning at all. And they they have a sketch of what they think it is, a little inkling, you know, “Oh, it's written in stanzas.” And sometimes they just say it's rhyme, and, you know, I have to correct them. It's not always rhyme, but you know, I just feel sadness when I see kids have not been exposed to poetry, because I feel like the importance–I mean poetry to me, gives students and me a way to express ourselves that is unique. And like you said, Heidi, about that art piece, it is a piece of art and a piece of art in words. And, you know, yesterday, a teacher was kind of trying to be flippant with me and with the students. She was saying, “Well, you know, watch out, because so and so, you know, she’s going to be grading this.” And I looked at her, and I went, “No, no, no, no, I don't, we don't ever grade poetry.” And she said, “Oh, I didn't mean it, you know.” But it's like, no, this is creative expression. It is not anything to be graded….So why is it important?
Jone:
I think it gives kids a sense of who they are. I think they I think there's a lot of joy they when they see that they have written a poem, and I know when I share on the blogs, when I publish their poems and go back and get to share they are just so–it builds that confidence. And I think one of the things that I love about teaching poetry is it's such a short [form], it isn't lengthy, you don't have to worry about paragraphs. And for some of those kids, where they're very resistant to writing, they can see that they can put something together that is kind of a low risk. You know, just last week, I was working with a school where they had a family literacy night, and they asked me to do a poetry room, and I decided to set up three stations. I had a really low-risk of “Come and read a poetry book with your your child,” and I put out some of the the anthologies that I've been published in, in a couple of my favorite go-to poetry books. Then the more medium-risk was these poetry cubes with phrases on them that they could just use the phrases and create basically a found poem. Or they could go off of it, and then the higher-risk was the haiku cubes, because you have to really sit down and and then you just have the best time. And I just think it gives them a sense of accomplishment. You know, even the ones that, when I have a kid that is resistant in writing, I will scribe for them. I don't care if they tell me–”Okay, so tell me what you're thinking. You know, let me write this down”.
Heidi:
That’s because you can compose a poem, even if you can't write a poem, right?
Jone:
Right, right?! And I've shared those on on Poetry Friday. You know, there's been some hilarious poems because they "don't want to" write poetry, and they say “I'm not a poet,” and yet they are!
Heidi:
Most kids are, and especially younger kids. And I always say, poetry is important for a few different reasons, and I'm going to echo some of what you've both said and add something in. So it IS the perfect genre for beginners, right? Because it is short, you can say something meaningful and powerful in just a few words, and it's a “legitimate” piece of writing, even if you don't know all the conventions of punctuation. Because, and I always say this, “Kids, what I love most about poetry is that you make up your own rules, right?” And it's good to be introduced to the rules of certain forms. But often the way it's taught in school is, “Here is a cinquain, here is a [nother form]—” and kids get the idea that it's a recipe that you follow, rather than being told what Margaret mentioned, that You Are the Boss of Your Poem. I am giving you all the input I can, lots of creative opportunities. We always make the art before we write, because while you're making the art, while you're acting out the story, you're cogitating, you're generating material for what it is you're about to write. So that provides something to hang your poem on. But no matter what I offer you, if you don't want to write about the thing that is the theme of the workshop, you don't have to, because the whole idea is that You are the Boss of Your Poem. And I think that this is also connected to the other reason that it's easy to shy away from doing poetry in the classroom, and that's because when you invite children to express themselves, THEY DO. And then you're the teacher in the room sitting with information, perhaps, or emotions or a view of a kid that you don't feel prepared, necessarily, to cope with. You have a ton of things on your plate. And I know, you know, we all know, having been in classrooms and libraries for all those years, there's ever more that you are responsible for, and the idea that you would also encounter the inside of a kid that you haven't met before in your classroom, because you've asked them to write, and you've said, “Write something that's meaningful and important to you,” is really scary. And I know that there are a lot of folks who, in addition to being maybe a little shy about encountering poetry themselves (like, what does it mean, and how do I decide what it means?), are also reluctant to offer kids the opportunity to really be themselves on paper…and they handle that sometimes by saying, “Here's the rubric, and your poem has to have seven lines, and your poem has to count the syllables, and you have to…” Whereas I always feel like I have been most successful as a poetry teacher, as a teaching artist, when no child's poem is anything like any other child's poem, because that means that I gave them that confidence you mentioned, Jone, that sense that “my voice matters,” and that's why I chose Poetry And Justice For All as my mission statement. Because there is justice buried in the ability of all kids to use their voices, to find their voices and use them powerfully. And if they're writing a funny poem that makes people laugh, that's just as powerful–and could turn into something really great down the road–as writing a really heartfelt nature appreciation poem, which is the thing that, in general, we much prefer to see come out in the classroom.
Or, you know, we might just see the raw truth of a kid's life. And I had to ask a kid the other day, she wrote something about “knives in my eyes, and I cry and I don't stop, and I don't stop. I don't stop until I cry.” And I was like, “Hmm, let me ask this little girl a question: are you seeing something you don't want to see?” Because I was curious about why she would say that she'd stab knives in her eyes. And she said, “No, that's the feeling of my anger.” And I said, “How about this? How about we help people understand what this poem is about, and you could use anger as your title, a title, right?” So that people understand that there's not some….sensitive situation of possibly being exposed to content that she didn't really want to see. And really it was just her own intense feeling of anger, you know, at her brother, right? Like “the only thing I can think of to relieve this is (stabbing knives into my eyes.] Dramatic kid. Great poem. So that all is why I think poetry is important, because it gives kids agency if you offer it, if you let them have it, and you have to be prepared as the teacher to [deal with it].
I have said to kids, you've probably had this experience too. I have said to kids, “That is an outstanding poem. It is, however, not school appropriate. So I want to tell you all the things that are good about this poem and why most people would not think it's okay to read this at our poetry party. But I want you to know it's a great poem, and I'm so glad you wrote it.”
Jone:
Yeah. I mean, I've had to remind a couple kids that we are going to be family friendly, you know. And I mean, when, especially when you, you know, one of the things I love to do, and it kind of leads into you were saying approaches, you know, word banks and and creating Word banks, and sometimes the word great word, not sure it's family-friendly, friends.
Heidi
Yeah, but boy, it's really great for rhyming!
But I did want to ask, how different do you do? You is what you do with much younger kids, and, for example, Margaret, the middle schoolers that you've been working with, and I think even some high school groups, right?
Margaret:
I have really run the gamut this year, and it's been challenging to me, because I am accustomed to the elementary group, and also I've been accustomed to gifted kids who kind of come in pretty ripe for writing, you know, they, they, they've got a lot of, you know, metaphorical thinking already and that kind of thing going on. And so now I'm going into regular classrooms with all all different, the full range, the full the full range, right? And so I have to kind of let go of some of my high expectations of what they might already know how to do. And and it's fine. It's fine. You know, we create a safe space within that time that we're together and and I always incorporate art. So, you know, I'm not teaching them how to draw. I'm not that kind of teaching artist. But we always include art. So when, when that kind of, you know, gives away in, it's a little safer space, you know, then and anyway, it has been. It has been kind of an interesting journey. But I've really enjoyed it. And some of the things that the kids have come back with have been just amazing. And when they create something that is kind of amazing, they feel it, they know it, you know, yeah. And I like those little miracles that, yay.
Heidi:
But also, have you seen this, too? Where one or two kids write something that's outside the sort of middle path, and everybody can feel that it's special, and they get inspired by their peer, and they want to go and try something else, and they want to take a little more risk. They want to, you know, say something truer, say something in a different way. And I love when that happens, (you know, it happens with all kinds of things, “6-7” just careened through every classroom in the entire internet world.) And, it would be really great if poetry, poetry recitation, did that too. But you can see that that happening in classrooms, you know, a little contagion of of poetic risk.
Margaret:
One thing I did this week that was different, that I really was pleased with how it turned out, because I kind of hesitate to actually pick up another student's poem and read it. But with these middle schoolers, they were so like, “I don't want to read this,” you know, right? Read it out loud. And I said, “Okay, well, would you mind if I read it out loud?” And then I turned on the performer me, you know, in reading aloud their poem, and, I mean you could just feel the pride happen in the room because someone else was reading their poem, but I was reading it with with such vigor,
Jone:
Sometimes offering to read for somebody really changes the tone of the room and gives–they go “Oh!”--especially when they hear the the feedback from other students that's really positive.
Heidi:
I talk about how I'm gonna share from poems---"Now I'm not gonna say who the poet is. If it's your poem and you want to claim it and say, I wrote that publicly, you can, and then maybe you'll come and read it, you know, with me." But I think you're right. It's so important to let them hear how their poem sounds with kind of a sensitive, dramatic, experienced performance voice, right? But I read them--I don't really ask permission, because I'm not revealing who it is. And I say, “What I love about this poem is this and this and this and this is really cool, and you might like to try this. Let's give that poet a clap. And so without ever revealing who it was, eventually everybody knows whose poem is whose, but it's a way of letting older kids not expose themselves and yet have their work honored and appreciated, and you know, the examples of peers being shared.
Margaret:
Fabulous. I ask them if I can take a picture of it, yeah. And I tell them, I say that I'm a blogger, and I'll take a picture of it, and I'll say that I'm going to, you know, I'm going to publish this. So I think, Jone, you do that too, right? You publish there.
Jone:
Yes, yes. And it was last week I subbed in the second grade classroom that I've been in several times now this year, and we did the animal sound poems, which is one of my go-tos, and they just all wanted to read. They can't wait! “Can we read our poems. Can we?” Yes, you can– I love that.
Margaret: 27:04
I think, Jone, I'm gonna steal that! As a teaching artist, you have to create your workshops that you're gonna post on the website. So I think I'm gonna put that up as one for next year, and I think it will go really well with my new baby board book that is about the sounds of birds. I mean, it's full of onomatopoeia. So we can just make onomatopoeia poems!
Jone:
One of the things I've been doing with been playing around with the word bank is because, you know, I provide a lot of scaffolding for their poetry to start. But instead of asking them, well, colors for the animals, I have started using “the color of,” and in the fourth grade class that I was in a couple weeks ago. I said, “Okay, if something is brown, how can we say it's brown without saying it's brown?” And then you're not saying, Oh, now we're going to write a metaphor, you know? No, you just [make the comparison]. I'm going in to fourth grade tomorrow, and I'm going to try it also with “So give me some moves. It moves like what?And I think it's such a great AHA for me. Like, “Oh, this is so much better than tell me how it moves,” you know.
Margaret:
So, yeah, that's a great idea! Thank you.
[Jone then starts us off on our wild free-for-all of books we love to use; see the very bottom of the post!]
Heidi:
Here’s a big, big, important question: How does creating with young poets sustain and inspire YOU?
Jone:
I am constantly looking at how to revise lessons what I mean. They just provide the energy. They see things in a different way than I would have ever seen it. I love when they don't follow the rules…I think I'm going to talk about this a little bit in the blog for tomorrow (April 3). So in the animal poems, I have them to kind of talk about rhythm. You know, the animal sounds, repeat the animal sounds. And I had a student, and I said, you know, you can play with it, it doesn't have to be the same three sound sounds, you can, you can play with them. And they had them going like, ME–OW, MEO–W. And I just thought, this is brilliant, you know, I would have never thought of that, you know, just to indicate how you should be saying it and it should be different. Or they would switch the words and I thought, this is what I love. I love seeing how their little minds work, and their BIG minds!
Heidi:
All they need is permission.
Margaret:
Yep, yeah. And one of the things that Sandy Lyne said–he was a mentor of mine; he's since passed away–but he would say that the best poets are the ones who give themselves the most permission. And I've always remembered that. And I think being with kids, and writing poems alongside them, and watching them respond and and really be very proud of what they've accomplished, is sustaining. I mean, it's what I'm here for, and it's really the best part of of teaching for me. And I'm just happy I get to still do it, you know? And I don't have to write an IEP so that I can justify it, right? Yeah, or a lesson plan*, and I'm not really competing with any other teachers or anything. I mean it's really the best of the of the teaching world. In fact, I go into classrooms and the teachers themselves are just going, “Oh, I wish I could retire and teach poetry all the time.”
*Of course Margaret means that we all write careful lesson plans for our poetry teaching; but not for a whole day of everything!
Heidi:
I think most of us [teachers] have something that we feel especially passionate about. But you know, the inspiration and the sustenance are kind of the same for me. I'm wearing my little watering can earrings [for a reason], and I've also spoken about myself as a midwife to poems, and I feel like the job is to make way for kids to find their voice and then use it powerfully, as powerfully as possible. And if I'm teaching some technique about how to do that along the way, that's great, but really it's: “I see you, you are important. What you have to say is important.” And then they do! And that is inspiring to me because, like you said, Jone, I get so many ideas–back when I could remember verbatim what kids said in the classroom, I would go home and write poems about them. (My brain will not do that for me anymore.) So I get inspired by the things that kids say, what they write, how they see the world, but also it is a reminder every day of why we would bother to save the world! It's for them. They are the inspiration. You know, I'm getting relief from the outside world by being in the moment with kids, and then also, I'm getting reminded why it's important to pay attention to the outside world. And that is a combination which, in addition to just the joy of what they come up with and getting to do what I want without a lot of the stuff that I don't want, it makes my current job the best job I've ever had.
Jone & Margaret
Yeah, hear, hear! Yes, it is!
Heidi
We're so lucky! Look at us three [aging] lucky white ladies. (laughter)
Jone:
Yes, it is a privilege. I'll tell you that I feel that more and more every day–to bring joy into the world. I hope to always be bringing joy, because there's not enough of it in the world,
Heidi:
And I do think it keeps us young.
All of us:
I agree. I would totally agree. Thank you!
- Boom, Bellow, Bleat by Georgia Heard
- Winter Bees by Joyce Sidman
- How To Write A Poem by Kwame Alexander
- I Am Every Good Thing by Derrick Barnes
- Laughing Tomatoes; From The Belly Button Of The Moon; Angels on Bicycles;
Iguanas In The Snow, all by Francisco X Alarcon - All The Small Poems by Valerie Worth
- Lion Of The Sky and ____ Can Be books by Laura Purdie Salas
- Dictionary For A Better World by Irene Latham And Charles Waters
- when the world is puddle-wonderful by E.E. Cummings
- Seeing Into Tomorrow by Richard Wright
- “I Am From” by George Ella Lyon
- I Can Move The Sea, collected by Gillian Clark
- Salting The Ocean collected by Naomi Shihab Nye
- Ten-Second Rain Showers, collected by Sanford Lyne
- Poetry Friday Anthologies - Pomelo Books
- What Is A Friend?
- Hop To It
- Poetry Friday Anthology For Science
- The Dirigible Balloon - children’s poetry website
